DiVERGE Sneakers - How Custom Sneakers and Social Impact Walk Hand-in-Hand

Ramon Vela: [00:00:00] Welcome back everyone. This is Ramon Vela and I am an amazing guest and brand that we're going to feature on today's show.

Let me introduce you to JAL Este, who is founder of Diverge Sneakers. Welcome to the show. 

Joao Esteves: Thank you, Ramon. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 

Ramon Vela: And for everyone out there,~ um,~ we're gonna have his name on our podcast description, but just so you know, I probably didn't do a great job pronouncing his name.

~Uh, ~and he's just being incredibly gracious in just letting me,~ uh,~ letting me pass with that one. But,~ uh,~ it's a wonderful name. It's beautiful. The spelling is beautiful. ~Um, ~I just don't know how to pronounce it. All that w all that much. So, ~uh, ~just FYI just wanted to let people know that. I know I probably didn't do that a hundred percent.

~Um, ~but with that [00:01:00] said,~ uh,~ I really appreciate you making time for us,~ uh,~ on this show. I think you have a fascinating brand and I can't wait to dive into some of the particulars. ~Um, ~but before we begin. I always like to start my interviews with a question of gratitude. One is I, I'm a true believer in gratitude as a way to release stress and anxiety.

A lot of people are feeling stressed right now. We were just talking right now a little bit about the business. ~Um, ~and gratitude is a great way to just take a moment and, and just release a little anxiety and stress by being grateful. And I know it's difficult at times like this, but ~um, ~it really does work and I highly recommend it.

I've used it some of, through some of my most difficult times in my business life when I had to close down businesses and things like that. Gratitude was just a really, a really great tool. But I, the other reason why I mentioned the gratitude story is because I want the listener to know that there are real people behind the brands that we feature on this show.

People who care deeply [00:02:00] about the product, who care deeply about their communities, about their services and whatnot. And sometimes it's hard to see that when you see a product on on the market, you see them on shelves or online and you just think, oh, it's just some faceless corporation. No. There are real people who bleed, sweat, and tear over bringing this product to market.

And I want you to get to know them. And a great way to get to know someone is understanding what they are grateful for. So, with that said,~ uh,~ jal, please,~ uh,~ share with me a moment or a memory when someone did something for you that just made you feel grateful because it meant that they believed in you, your vision, or your potential.

Joao Esteves: Very well, first, foremost. ~Uh, ~rest assured to pronounce my name,~ uh,~ well enough. Yeah. As someone that has lived abroad and has a very difficult,~ uh,~ name to, to spell, I've been experiencing way, way bigger variation. So, feel, feel, feel at ease. [00:03:00] Gratitude. ~Um, ~it's when you should ask that as, ~uh. ~The, the, the, the last few years and the current moments.

~Uh, ~there's a lot of instability, a lot of stress, a lot of concerns for a lot of reasons. And,~ uh,~ I myself find that I'm very grateful for a lot of things and I don't,~ um,~ think about them enough. ~Uh, ~but the truth is every time I do, I do feel better. I do feel stronger. I do feel more positive. So fortunately enough, I have a lot of things to be grateful for.

And,~ uh,~ specifically within the context that,~ uh,~ you, you, you mentioned,~ uh,~ I think because we are in such need of. ~Uh, ~stories,~ uh,~ or,~ uh,~ good moments. ~Uh, ~I'll share two gratitude,~ uh,~ moments,~ uh,~ or two things I'm extremely grateful for. One of them was at a very pivotal moment in my life back when I was 19.

So way too long ago, around 30 years ago actually,~ um,~ I [00:04:00] had,~ um, uh, ~a rare,~ uh,~ neurological disease. Okay. I was in my first year of university and ~uh, ~I got,~ uh,~ a disease called the m Baer syndrome. I usually say it's kind of a Dr. House disease. He, he, he pick it very a lot of times, but it was never actually the final diagnosis.

That's why I, when I try to. Frame people, what type of disease? It's kind of a doctor disease, right? Mm-hmm. It's the syndrome basically. ~Uh, ~it's a virus that attacks the, the spinal cord, the central nervous system, and basically affects your coordination,~ uh,~ your sensitivity in the nerves,~ uh,~ and in 10% of the.

~Uh, ~you have to be connected to a ventilator, right? So it's a really serious, these days I talk about Dr. Ha's disease and stuff like that, but it was, it was really challenging. And,~ um,~ fortunately my ca my case was fairly mild. ~Uh, ~and I recovered [00:05:00] within three months, but that meant that I met, missed half of the semester.

And,~ uh,~ on top of, of course,~ uh,~ losing rhythm within my education. I was really sad because,~ uh,~ I had made really good friends in this,~ uh,~ first year we had been in zero year zero, so I had been friends with these guys for one year and a half, and I could. That these were gonna be good friends for life. And I was really sad that we're gonna, I was gonna lose, I had to repeat the whole year.

So one of them,~ uh,~ made sure that,~ uh,~ that wasn't the. And,~ uh,~ he helped me together with another one. It was Peter Paul helped me really study hard and to recover as much,~ uh,~ as I could. So I policed, although I didn't have good grades, I had enough good grades to pass the subject and be with them the following.

And,~ uh,~ there was a specific time that every time I think about it, I [00:06:00] kind of choke was where it was the final. Just, I got back like two months, one month after I got back. It was kind of the final test. It was counting to the, the, the, the, the subject. And,~ uh,~ it was really hard for me and I was extremely exhausted because this disease had an impact on my physical resistance.

And I was like, I can't do this anymore, man. It's okay if I do the other three, it'll be okay and I'll do, I'll do what I have to. It is uncharacteristically at 6:00 PM You're gonna be at the university at 8:00 PM and I'm gonna stop studying for myself. He was a very good student, fortunately didn't, and I'm gonna just focus on getting you past the hurdle.

And so it was, he was there at eight, eight o'clock in the morning. He probably had to get up around 5 30, 6 o'clock in order to make that happen. And,~ uh,~ he basically, [00:07:00] on top of the work that he had done and passing me all his,~ uh,~ annotations of the classes and trying to explain me everything that had occurred, he just.

Took the whole day that he probably needed for himself, although he was really smart and really,~ uh,~ talented,~ uh,~ to teach me to, to, to make sure I learned everything I could. And,~ uh,~ thanks to him and that push I was able to get the minimum grade to keep fighting and actually ended up passing the subject at the end of the year.

Feel very happy for this because it was, I don't know if it was believing in my potential, it was believing in friendship, which is a value that I hold dear. ~Uh, ~I usually say that if I want someone to remember me by, I want them to remember that I was [00:08:00] the best friend I could. That person. Mm-hmm. And that I was a good friend to my friend and, and this was an opportunity for someone to do the same for me.

~Uh, ~and,~ uh,~ I was always very. Yeah, very happy and grateful that I got to find friends that sacrificed themselves for me in this particular case in a, a subject,~ uh,~ in this early moment of our friendship. But it was kind of him believing that, believing me in me as a human, being in me as a student, but above all in me as a friend, and he was not gonna.

So I'm always very grateful for everything that, that he enabled me to, to keep doing for the following years we were at the university. So that story one, the other story is with another friend that I made later in university that became my brothers in arms, actually, the. Financial name of the company [00:09:00] is Brothers in Arms because of that.

Mm-hmm. Because we see each other as brothers in arms,~ uh,~ like brothers without having the, the, the blood,~ uh,~ connection. Yeah. ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ he, he fortunately, has had a fantastic career in.

And he invested. We invested more or less in equal parts in the beginning, but at a moment in time where we could see that we're not gonna be raising any capital. And I was getting to be a bit strange. ~Uh, ~he,~ uh,~ kind of said, okay, I look at this business and to be honest, nothing in it right now shows that this.

Further investment makes sense. But I believe in you. I believe in this project. I know the context is against us, the environment, the, the, the, the way e-commerce is evolving doesn't help us. But,~ uh,~ I'm not gonna leave you strength and if you want to keep going, all [00:10:00] funding. And,~ uh,~ he did. He did. ~Uh, ~and it was,~ uh,~ still a significant amount of money.

It was not pocket money himself out there. Being, having the business acumen that he has, I also have that. He certainly has. ~Uh, ~it was not a financial decision. It was very much believing in me as a leader and believing in what we're trying to do,~ uh,~ more than what the business,~ uh,~ presented as an opportunity.

So I am all, I'll always be grateful. ~Uh. ~To be car for what he did because he gave us the, the, the runway to, to keep pushing and to reach,~ uh,~ the stage where we are now. If it wasn't for him, we wouldn't be. 

Ramon Vela: Wow. Those are two amazing stories. And ~um, ~and the first one that you mentioned,~ um,~ have you gone back and let them know?

Oh yeah. What that meant to them meant, meant to you. 

Joao Esteves: Oh, yeah. I keep, I, I tell their, for example, the first [00:11:00] story I tell. His children, Pedro's children, what his, what his father did for me. I make sure my children know. I make sure I, I, I advertise this heavily. ~Uh, ~I, I definitely make them know how happy I have, I am to have them in my corner and to have had them in my corner.

But that absolute, I, I put the highest value possible, the highest premium ship. Acknowledging my friends for all the good they do and sometimes all the bad they do as well. That's what being a good friend is about. 

Ramon Vela: Yeah. ~Uh, ~well, I love it. Those go har straight to the heart of the question that I, I asked.

And, and not only that, but just they're really heartwarming stories because you're a friend, especially the first story. ~Um, ~you know, they didn't, they didn't have to do that, you know, they didn't, you know, ~uh, ~a lot of times. I mean, gratitude could be simply for a, a, a,~ um,~ a kind word given at a [00:12:00] really needed time, right?

A, a a moment, a time where you're, you're feeling really down or whatnot, and you, someone comes and, and tells you something really great or someone provides advice to you or whatnot. ~Um, ~but to really. Take time and hours and days or whatever it took to help you get up to speed. That's really something because it's, you know, they're not doing it for any money.

They're just doing it to help you. And, and evidently though that they saw something in you that they really,~ uh,~ cherished as a friend. And decided that they were, they were not going to,~ uh,~ they were gonna help you and not let you just, you know, skip a year or whatever that might be. So that's amazing. And then of course, the second one is just really amazing too, because these people are in both examples really.

They're not just. Giving you some kind words, but they're also following up with actions and with resources. ~Um, ~and so those two, I think just are amazing. So that, thank you for sharing and stepping 

Joao Esteves: up. It's, it's that,~ uh,~ kind of movie moment or novel [00:13:00] moment where they come in the nick of time to make sure they stand by you and.

Make it happen. 

Ramon Vela: Well, and I think this is a good segue, especially the second story where your, about your friend investing in it, even though,~ uh,~ things weren't still, you know, you still haven't reached your milestones or what, whatever those might be. But I think this is a great way to segue into. What was it about the brand, the mission,~ um,~ that, or the company that your friend felt like it was worth keep,~ uh,~ worth it to keep it going?

~Um, ~maybe, maybe this will be helpful if you give us an overview of what the company is and then what you think your friend saw in this venture that he felt like it really should kept, keep going. 

Joao Esteves: ~Uh, ~well, so Diverge Sneakers is,~ uh, uh, ~a brand that,~ uh,~ offers,~ uh,~ custom sneakers, handcrafted and Portugal according to [00:14:00] your personality and preferences.

So, ~uh, ~we allow you to come into our website and create the sneakers. And just like you wanted, we have a different number of styles available that is increasing throughout time. You can choose colors, materials, you can even write something,~ uh,~ about you there. We are currently a B corporation and we, we can talk about this letter.

We promote social and ~uh, uh, ~environmental impact in our business model, but I. This was about creating a brand that shifted the industry. The individuality of each one of us front and center. What do I mean by this? For the most part, sneakers have,~ uh,~ especially after Theia phenomenon,~ uh,~ have kind of invaded our wardrobe.

Even more formal,~ uh,~ occasions, you cannot wear sneakers. I [00:15:00] usually say that if you got, if you saw someone,~ uh,~ getting married in sneakers 10 years ago, you was either an artist or the creative director of an advertising company, right? And today, if you see someone getting married in sneakers, you won't blink.

That shows how sneakers invited our, our wardrobe. But at the same time, despite all the special editions, limited editions, collabs with Artist X or artist y, the, the, the, the, the sneaker companies keep pushing the same paradigm, right? Mass production. 'cause they do all these limited editions, but what they really want to sell you is 99% of what they actually produce every season.

Mass production in the far East in very debatable working conditions,~ uh,~ with very debatable longevity and quality in terms of product. And I thought that was ruled for a brand that shook this paradigm and so did he. And at the same time, [00:16:00] reverse also this top down approach of every freshman brand that has like a creative director that knows best and suggests or shows what you can wear every given season.

And we wanted to reverse that and say, okay, here's these canvas that you can work with, but put a little bit of yourself. In what you're gonna be wearing every day to make your journey, right? Mm-hmm. Ultimately, I think that's what he believes in a brand that is shaking things up, that is trying to prove that a new paradigm is possible.

~Uh, ~and that's what he believed in. And of course that was also reinforced with all the social impact and environmental impact we, we, we provoke. But that's kind of a byproduct of our attitude of being. ~Um, ~yeah. Disruptors in a good way and try to do things better differently while giving you more of the stage.

Ramon Vela: Mm-hmm. And in,~ uh,~ the B [00:17:00] Corp, just so everyone knows too,~ um,~ and I've mentioned this to you in, in previous interviews, but the B Corp, ~um. Uh, ~this is not a specific, or, you know, the exact definition from the, you know, from the website, but a B Corp is a corporation that, first of all, it takes, it takes a lot of effort to become a B Corp.

Correct. And so feel free to correct me after, but it takes a long time. ~Uh, ~to become a B Corp takes a lot of effort. ~Um, ~it's very strenuous. Process. I've heard people say they wish it was easier,~ um,~ because it is so hard,~ uh,~ and typically a company who wants to be a B Corp is attracted to a B Corp because they not only want to create a, a, a for-profit business, but they also want to create a business that does good in the world, but not just good in the too.

Others, but also within the corporation. ~Um, ~basically you promise to treat people a certain way, to pay people a certain way to ~um, um, ~be good to the community, be good to the environment. All this other, all these things around,~ uh,~ a [00:18:00] B Corp is just essential for a lot of people. And, and it is, is one of these things where I feel like you, I.

Business is hard enough. And for when a business becomes a B Corp, it just tells me that that company really cares about,~ um,~ all these different things beyond just making the dollar. And I think that's important for consumers to know because, you know, a lot of consumers just think, like, for instance, they feel like, oh, that company's only for a profit, or that company's only out to make a buck.

Or, you know, you mentioned earlier about. Mass production and, and these shoe companies sending,~ uh,~ they're manufacturing to these very poor countries and they, and sometimes these workers are not treated fairly or they're treated unethically. I think I remember one shoe company, I think, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't wanna say it because I don't remember a hundred percent, but was caught,~ um,~ having child labor,~ uh,~ making their products and so forth.

And so. These are the [00:19:00] things that, you know, you may look at and say, oh, look at these companies, but when a company's a B Corp, they're basically telling you we're not gonna be do business that way. We're gonna do business differently. And so from a consumer standpoint, if I'm looking at a shoe company and I know there are B Corp, I'm going to give that extra credence because.

If those things are important to me, then having a company who's a B Corp,~ um,~ was important to me. So anyhow, I just wanted to make that distinction and let people know. For those who don't know who are listening, it's just really, really important. ~Um, ~I think, and,~ uh,~ and speaking of the, you know, like the, the.

The mass reduction. I'm not sure if you mentioned this too, but,~ um,~ I'm assuming also this means sustainability too, right? It's like you wanna create products with some sort of,~ um,~ sustainability in mind as much as possible versus, you know, the. The mass production that companies make. And these shoes sometimes then, then end up in,~ um,~ in, what do they call 'em?

In [00:20:00] a landfills. Landfills. Right? Landfills. Yeah. So I'm assuming that's the case as well. Like this is part of the plan, which you, you, by doing what you're doing, you're, you're trying to not overproduce so that these products then go into landfills. 

Joao Esteves: So that's absolutely right. ~Uh, ~just,~ uh,~ so we're all on the same page.

~Uh, ~according to a study by McKinsey Fashion on Climate,~ uh,~ they estimated that for the fashion industry to reach the goals of the Paris Accords,~ uh,~ the reduction in terms of CO2,~ uh,~ 9.4% of that reduction. Could be achieved only by eliminating overproduction. So what is overproduction is things that get produced but not sold.

They go to from store to store, warehouse to warehouse, outlet to outlet until they are central landfill,~ uh,~ in some distant location from which we tend to see,~ uh,~ amazing photos [00:21:00] every six months of deserts. Completely covered in,~ uh,~ in,~ uh,~ destroyed product. So the, the, we're talking about 10%, see all the, the CO2 that could be saved, 10% is just eliminating issues of supplying demand.

So that's why we only make two order. At Diverge, we only make two order. We only make what we sell. ~Um, ~and if that sometimes means. Losing cells, so be it. We decided to do this because we wanna be responsible. I tend to avoid using the word sustainability because for me, sustainability is a constant journey.

You never reach the destination. You, you. There are no a hundred percent sustainable sneakers. I can go,~ uh,~ compensate by 20. Forests and I'm compensating, I'm still not making them sustainable, right? I'm just balancing it out. I like the word [00:22:00] responsible versus sustainable. As a business, what I can do is to try to have the minimum possible impact in terms of environment that I can have by doing my sneakers, and that has, that happens in two levels.

The first one is if I only produce what I sell, I at least make sure my products are used. And are basically ran down naturally by the use and at least the resources that were used to make them have a good use. Right? The second element is quality wise. I try to make, we try to craft sneakers that stand the test of time, that use quality materials that still look good two years.

After being used. So why so that you don't have to buy so many pairs? So enjoy more ~consum,~ consume less,~ uh,~ is part of our mantra as well. We are, we buy into that because yes, you can sometimes have, [00:23:00] oh, but these use recyclable materials and A, B, and C are done this way. But if that means that you have to bear, buy a pair every six months.

Because they don't look that good after a couple of weeks use, are you really, really helping the environment versus when you buy something that you know will last that you know will still look good because the quality of the materials are really,~ uh,~ really hot. So that's how we, we, we go about it. But it is clearly on the opposite end of the mass production.

~Uh, ~and ~uh, ~that's something we keep pushing forward and we keep doing. So, ~uh, ~even though sometimes people ask us, can I get a pair of sneakers in two days? No, sorry. You can't, you can look in our outlet where we get the returns and sizing issues. We sell 'em by a discount, but we make sure every sneaker we make gets to be used by someone.

Ramon Vela: Mm-hmm. And,~ um,~ and by the way,~ uh,~ what you just said right now, I, I think is, is great and. You are absolutely [00:24:00] right. Whenever I use the word sustainability, I always try to preface it with,~ uh,~ like with what you said, which is sustainability is a journey, not a, not a destination. Because there's always constantly things that you can do from a manufacturing standpoint, from a packaging standpoint, from a material standpoint, design standpoint, all sorts of things.

~Um, ~and it, you, what you said also reminded me, and I can't remember her name right now, or the. Brand. It's like, I can, I see it in my head, but I just, I can't, can't see the, I can't picture the name right now. But she said something I thought was really, really interesting that,~ uh,~ coincides with what you said.

She said that,~ um,~ and I, I, I felt like it was, it was like what both of you said. It was really honest. She said,~ uh,~ if I, you know, the most sustainable thing I can do is just not make clothes. You know, because she was the, a clothing manufacturer. She's like, the most sustainable thing I can do is just not make clothes.

She goes, but since that's not an option, you know, we have to do the best that we can, you know, ~uh, ~in being sustainable. And I, and that's kinda like what you're [00:25:00] saying, and I just think that's incredibly honest and it's true. And I think people should know that, that regardless of how sustainable someone tries to be, it's just, the reality is there are a lot of claws, there are a lot of products,~ uh,~ you know, ~um, ~apparel and clothing and, and everything else.

And they all use 

Joao Esteves: resources. Yeah. 

Ramon Vela: And they all use resources. ~Um, ~so thank you for answering that. I just wanted to comment on that. That was pretty cool. ~Um, ~I wanna get into, into the actual products and the design and everything else so that people have a good understanding. But before we do that, I know that you advise a lot of people, you mentor people and so forth.

~Um, ~if someone's out there right now and they wanna start a business and they're thinking, you know. ~Uh, ~whether this is a good or, or not a good time to start a business, but let's say they wanna start a business. ~Um, ~what are some of the insights, some of the lessons that you've learned that you would pass on to someone if you're mentoring them?

~Uh, ~someone who says, Hey,~ uh,~ I would love to start a business. Do you, can you share any, any insights? 

Joao Esteves: Well after kind of trying to [00:26:00] understand if they did their homework, let's assume they did, that they found a, a need, a problem to solve, that they found a differentiated solution and,~ uh,~ a fairly easy way or,~ uh,~ efficient way to take it to market.

~Uh, ~'cause I, I, I'll, I'll make sure that I understand what they're on about before kind of advising the

input. Look at the structure. Look at the, the, the issue at.

To be honest, I, before I started this business, I was on, I was 20. I worked at Unilever for 20,~ uh,~ for 20 years. I worked at Unilever,~ uh,~ at Lego, the toy company in,~ uh,~ the biggest beer brand in Portugal called Super, the biggest sports retailer. Retailer in Portugal,~ uh,~ at the kind sports zone,~ uh,~ and a few other projects ahead of the PR firm.

So, ~uh. ~What most surprised me when I turned in an entrepreneur around 43 was,~ uh,~ the [00:27:00] need for emotional resilience. So if I was to share an insight of what has been this hard. Journey six years as an entrepreneur is make sure you are emotionally resilient, because if you are not, might as well not really try because.

Being entrepreneur right now. I think it has been more, but it's still very fashionable. Everyone wants to create their own thing. Everyone wants to be a successful entrepreneur. What people don't tell you is that you don't just become an entrepreneur by wishing it. You need to have a certain amount of traits in order to be successful at it.

Fortunately, I've been able to prove that I am, but it has required much more energy than I thought it was resilience. Emotional resilience. [00:28:00] Mm-hmm. So I usually say that it's a bit like the roller coaster, but I go through this emotional roller coaster of, I start the day with a email that makes me think, oh, this is gonna be great.

What a great semester we're gonna be having. And 20 minutes later I get a text or a phone call that makes me think, okay, we're screwed. This is gonna be, this was the worst decision I've ever made in my life. To suddenly get another text that says, oh, maybe it won't be that bad. Maybe this will cover this and will be okay.

And this roller coaster is just one morning, and sometimes I have a few of them every day. And that is really hard to get to the end of the day by having the ability to withstand. The stress of, oh, this is going to go down in flames, and then half an hour later thinking, no, there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

And this resilience takes a huge toll in terms of [00:29:00] energy. And not everyone has the, the, the characteristics. To, to sleep less or to stay awake or to,~ uh,~ yeah. Withstand what we're talking about. And that, for me is the biggest insight, the need for emotional resilience and that not everyone is made to have it in this context of business.

Ramon Vela: Yeah, I, I, I absolutely agree with you. I mean, there's so many different things you could,~ uh,~ lessons or insights. You can teach someone about it, about business, and, and there's a lot of, you know, ~uh, ~skill sets and, you know, I. Specific knowledge that you need. Like you mentioned, all these different,~ um,~ there's different areas, you know, Lego toys, you know, beer, you know, is a d is a beverage.

You know, there's, and within those, there's these little niche knowledge bases or knowledge that you need to learn about it. 'cause they all have, they're all kind of different. They're all business and they all are entrepreneurial. But, or [00:30:00] it could be entrepreneurial, but each industry has its own sort of like, you know, ~um, uh.~

Specifics. ~Um, ~but regardless of that, I have, so I have heard so many times,~ uh,~ an entrepreneur comes to the show. Like yesterday I interviewed a brand called,~ um, um, ~cure Hydration. And ~um, ~she, one of the first things she says is that I didn't know anything about formulating a hydration powder. She's like, I had no clue.

I'm not a scientist. I'm not a biologist. I don't know anything about it. Or, you know, a chemist or whatever. She goes, I didn't know anything about it. I had to learn how to make it, how to do it, and so forth. And so, so I always feel like the knowledge component is something you can learn. You ask enough questions, you find a mentor, you read, you Google, you do everything else you need.

The one thing that we don't. Focus on that, I feel like is the most important, is the emotional side of it. [00:31:00] Because you sometimes people get in it and they don't really take in that emotional side into,~ um,~ into, you know, into play. And then many of those people end up being burned out. Many people end up being, you know, emotionally drained.

Many people. ~Uh, ~develop anxiety and stress and all sorts of other things. And then of course, we all know that that,~ uh,~ is a, is sort of like a, what do they call it when you,~ um,~ you know, it's like a, a,~ um,~ it's like a, when you throw rock into the water and it, and it,~ uh,~ you know, it ripples the, the 

Joao Esteves: ripples, 

Ramon Vela: ~um.~

It will affect your health, it'll affect your relationships, it'll affect all sorts of different things if you are highly stressed and, and anxious and and worried and everything else. And the emotional rollercoaster, when you said that, I was like, man, I have heard that so many times around emotional rollercoaster.

So anyhow, I a hundred percent agree with you. And I think that's one aspect that I feel like is lacking in a lot of the entrepreneurial space is, and even in incubators, it's like, I just don't think there's enough. Enough put into that because I [00:32:00] feel like if you are emotionally resilient and it, and this is a practice, it's not just like, ooh, you're, you've reached that destination.

It's a practice. If you practice emotional resil resilience and you have the tools, you can withstand a lot of stuff in your business and your personal life and everything. And I just don't think we, we, we teach that enough in,~ uh,~ in our society. But anyhow. That is fantastic. Thank you. So the website, lemme just make sure everyone knows and because we're gonna be talking more deeply about the products, the website is diverge, sneakers diverge, that's D-I-V-E-R-G-E and that's V as in Victor, D-I-V-E-R-G-E.

And then hyphen sneakers.com. Diverge sneakers.com. If you wanna take a look at what we're talking about. And I'm actually, I have it up. ~Um. ~I have it up on my screen. Why don't you walk us through a little bit. I'm fascinated by the whole idea of the custom sneakers, and I know that when we first [00:33:00] met, we had a lot of questions about that.

Can you walk us through the whole process? I. 

Joao Esteves: Sure. So what we tried to do was to create a portfolio of sneakers, some,~ uh,~ first and foremost all of them,~ uh,~ for lifestyle,~ uh,~ use. So we don't have,~ uh,~ any performance sneakers in our portfolio. Whereas if yet, we're not planning in short term to have them.

It's more about something you can wear within your day to day life. What we tried to do was to create a portfolio of styles of sneakers that can cater to a wide range of customers. So if we want to be a brand where most people can come and say, okay, I want this style of sneaker, let me do this in my colors.

We had to have a, a variety that was,~ uh,~ wide enough so that people more or less feel that they could still do one of these things. Then after that, the challenge is to try and understand [00:34:00] how much customization can we bring into play without being too complicated for the customer. Right. And that actually I pushed it too far.

That was the learning,~ uh,~ that I met in the sense that as a theoretical of marketing, I want to give you all the options. I want to give you, I want you to feel empowered to change the color of the thread, of the line, of the line that is used to thread the or to, I want to, I.

Decision on.

There's, I'm gonna talk about supply chain as well, but in theory, on paper, this is great. A brand that customizes that makes something, that puts your choices, your preferences, front and center, that [00:35:00] allows you to make really a unique pair of sneakers just for yourself, puts something written on it. Great.

In practice, if you don't look at the variables in the right way, you might end up.

10 decision, 20 decisions. And I think I took it too far in some instances. You know, there's a,~ um,~ someone that I really respect, which is Scott Galloway Pro G. Yeah. ~Uh, ~I, I, I listen to his podcast a lot. Unfortunately, he hates customization. I thought every once in a while to, to call him on this show to, to, to kind of understand,~ uh, uh, ~or to discuss with him a few ideas.

I understand where he's coming from and. Decision as a tax, right? Every time I ask my customer to decide something, I'm texting my customer, right? And I've learned that I am doing it. So it's about taxing the customer as little as possible on one hand, but [00:36:00] then trying to compensate him with. Really almost emotional feeling of getting to,~ uh,~ receive at home,~ uh,~ a pair of sneakers specifically dedicated,~ uh,~ crafted for them with all the details they requested and all the self-esteem boost that comes with having something that you think it reflects some part of your character.

Something physical that you can wear in the following minute and every day for the foreseeable two, three years ahead,~ uh,~ as you go through life. So it was about getting that balance, which I think we have improved significantly. So giving you freedom of choice, but not taxing you too much with,~ uh,~ decision making.

But that is always a, a balance that as a business focused on customization, we keep managing. ~Uh, ~after that [00:37:00] you have information about materials, colors,~ uh,~ all, all our leathers, for example, are certified. ~Uh, ~we try to. Make you feel comfortable with everything we teach you. ~Uh, ~theory of colors. So if you are not so sure about what you like, but you really like blue, what colors go well in blue?

Go for orange. If you want to go,~ uh, uh, ~opposite colors, but you go for green. ~Uh, ~if you want to do ENT colors, we try to. Take you by the hand and give you some tools for you to consider, uh uh, what is the right choice for you in case you are not completely sure. I think our easy, that's the easiest customer is that person that knows, these are my favorite colors, this is the style, this is the one I want to do.

I choose the colors. I write something. Personal order gets done. In our experience, a lot of people are kind of in this decision. Will I like this? Will my friends like this? Do I feel okay using them? [00:38:00] And, and that's the hurdle that we have tried different solutions to overcome and fortunately we are improving it,~ uh,~ every day.

~Um, ~trying to give more clarity and more certainty for our customers when order. 

Ramon Vela: Well, I mean, it's fascinating and I, I see it right here. Like, you can go a, again, it's diverge sneakers.com and I'm looking at 'em, and the shoes, the base of the shoes, you know, which you have, there are, you know, like the, the canvas I guess you call it.

Mm-hmm. ~Uh, ~they're beautiful. I mean, as they're, as they, as they are. I mean, I love like the,~ uh,~ the floaters, the blue floater, and there was a brown one I think I saw. ~Uh. ~That I thought looked really, really great. ~Um, ~on the website too, you have not only for men, you have for women, you also have,~ um,~ where was it that I saw this?

~Um, ~you have collections,~ um,~ walk, walk me through those. ~Uh, ~are collections already pre-made ones? What are, what are those? 

Joao Esteves: So basically one [00:39:00] of the ways that we try to overcome the. Was we could just offer you white sneakers that you can customize, right? But what we wanted to showcase and as you go collections, you have by style, social impact collections.

Is, you can start with a white one, but then we offer you 10, 20, depends on the sneaker colorways that are possible, that are starting points for your customization, but starting points that are already further. Their customization, right? So you don't start from the, the white cabinet. It's like the, the, the white page, you know, the, the challenge of a, a blank page, right?

~Uh, ~but you have something that you like, oh, I like these, but I would probably change the color of the license. I would change the color of the back field. But at least you have a starting point that makes you feel more comfortable with the choices you're gonna be making in the [00:40:00] customization process.

Ramon Vela: Mm-hmm. And,~ um,~ you have. Let's see, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. You have like 12 different collections, is that correct? 

Joao Esteves: Mm-hmm. 

Ramon Vela: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm looking at that, that looks really interesting. And then I also see on the website,~ um,~ diverge sneak hyphen sneakers.com. I also see. ~Uh, ~a social impact. 'cause I know that right at the beginning you were talking about,~ um,~ the B Corp and you, when you were describing the company.

~Um, ~walk me through a little bit of one of the, the social impacts,~ uh,~ that you're having with the brand. Okay. 

Joao Esteves: So, ~uh, ~divert being a brand. For those making their own way. And by the way, I didn't mention that, but it's a good way to, to it's a good moment to, to, to, to, to, to speak to you about it. ~Um, ~we,~ uh,~ are called diverged inspired by a poem by the American poets,~ uh,~ Robert Frost.

The were Not Taken, where it's that point where he talks about two roads [00:41:00] diverging in the woods. One of them. Then he goes on about telling that one of them is very used, very trodden, very clear where it's headed. And the other one's a bit more mysterious. ~Uh, ~he'll take some exploring some adventurous spirit into it.

And he ends up the poem with two roads diverged in the wood. And that is,~ uh,~ I went to do the Less traveled by. And that has made all the difference. That's why we're called. We wanna be the brand of those that go into the Less Traveled by. ~Uh, ~and,~ uh,~ we want to be the ones of the brand of those people making their own way.

As I told you in the beginning of this conversation, we also want to be the brand that makes you feel good about who you are and your individuality and proud of who you are as an individual, right? So we thought that a brand that starts up like this. ~Uh, ~needs to be at the service of the community. So what we decided with this platform that we created of customization and make sneakers, we,~ uh,~ decided to reach out [00:42:00] to underprivileged kids.

~Uh, uh, ~kids, sorry, I'm getting old. They're not actually kids. They're 16. Four of them are actually adults. ~Uh, ~I kids out. ~Uh, uh, ~yeah. Emotional. Yeah. I, I, I, I enjoy being with. But basically underprivileged young adults. Mm-hmm. ~Uh, ~in,~ uh, uh, uh, ~areas that are facing a lot of issues. ~Uh, ~and,~ uh,~ we basically invite them to come to a training course in soft skills and entrepreneurship.

With us, with me, with my team, we give our time. We invest our time in teaching between 30 to 40 hours of classes to these,~ uh,~ young adults that are being at risk of social exclusion and poverty. And at the end of the process, they get to create their own sneakers. We put them on sale on our site, not customizable because they were created by a specific individual.

And each sneaker tells a [00:43:00] story, tells the story of its creator and where that person is coming from. Where is that person heading? Why did they do the sneakers they did? ~Uh, ~and it's basically a way. To really live up to what we want as a brand. Put these individuals that are going through struggles that are going through a lot of challenges,~ uh,~ every day, and give them the stage, give them the opportunity to present themselves to the world in an aspirational way.

~Uh, ~tell their story and hopefully maybe their sneakers get bought and they actually get part of the proceeds as a financial reward. It's not really the promise of the project. We do,~ uh,~ deliver part of the proceeds back to them. That's about try to give them an extra boost in terms of revenue, but honestly, it's very much more about they reflecting on with us.

Who are they? What are. ~Uh, ~characteristics, why are there,~ uh,~ points they need to improve? I'm [00:44:00] sorry. And,~ um,~ based on that, really understand how we can help them have a more ambitious life project going forward,~ uh,~ and doing this journey with us. If you go to,~ uh,~ there's a,~ uh,~ in the navigation bar, social Impact, you can see all the young adults that have worked with us so far.

~Uh, ~we have had almost a hundred people working with us so far, and we are an actually a, a national rollout to reach between 650 and,~ uh,~ 900, almost a thousand,~ uh,~ young adults working with us. So we're actually expanding quite a lot because it turns out something that we. Yeah, will and wish to give back to the community and to,~ uh,~ give a stage to these individuals that have a lot of potential but not a lot of opportunities.

~Uh, ~it turns out that as the word spread, a lot of people, a lot of entities, public and private, really wanna take this project to [00:45:00] their communities. So we're being asked and sponsored to expand much quicker,~ uh,~ than we anticipated in this area. 

Ramon Vela: Hmm. Wow. I mean, I love everything about what you're talking about in terms of the brand since the very beginning of this interview has really been very, a very cohesive, you know, like in terms of what you just described about the social impact, the name of the company Diverge, which, thank you for sharing that because I forgot to ask that.

~Um, ~I remember when we met. I, I love the idea of the, of the Robert Frost poem and then, you know, from our conversations around,~ um,~ the B Corp and what it means, it just feels like everything is aligned. ~Um, ~I haven't used this term in a long time, but I, I love the idea that I. From the mission to how you, how you make the, the sneakers, the idea and the philosophy around the sneaker to the social impact.

Everything is, there's a constant theme across everything, and there's a [00:46:00] constant alignment on everything. You know, for instance, that company that I mentioned earlier, you know, they talk about. They have this really cool advertising slogans and things about togetherness and being, being good to the world, whatever.

And then they get caught using child labor in their, in their, in their factories. That is unalignment, that's like misalignment, I should say. And so. I just love, I love to see a brand that is so aligned with their principles, with the way they do things, the way they treat the world, and how they help,~ uh,~ people in that world.

And I think that's a lot. You just, as you just did a great job of describing that, so kudos to you and, and thank you for putting that into the world because not every company is aligned, right. You know, companies, you know, will say things in their slogans, but then they do things differently behind the scenes, right?

And so, yeah. ~Uh, ~thank you for that. I appreciate it. 

Joao Esteves: I appreciate it. ~Uh, ~yeah, I think ultimately that's [00:47:00] something we really work hard to achieve. ~Uh, ~how to be really consistent and for example, in the social impact program, the, the approach was how can we make this to be the perfect example of what Diverge wants to be in the world as a brand that focuses on the individual and, and.

Your DNA as a brand and where are you focusing Things then are easier to, to, to, to, to develop and to fit because they're all at the service of this bigger idea. ~Uh, ~and fortunately enough with the Imagine Program,~ uh,~ we're really. These,~ uh,~ young adults at risk of social exclusion and poverty in underprivileged communities in a very unique and differentiated way.

~Uh, ~where yeah, the sneakers serve the purpose of calling their attention. They come over, we conquer them [00:48:00] with our attitude and our tools and our training sessions, and they become part of the family forever. 

Ramon Vela: Yeah, well, I mean, ~uh, ~again, I just, I feel like you guys meet our tagline, which is tagline of the show for those who don't know, is products worth buying, brands we're supporting.

And I think you guys meet that,~ um,~ to the t. So thank you for that. I. I wanna be respectful for your time. We started out our interview a little bit late. It's, we had a great conversation,~ uh,~ just that everyone knows about tariffs and politics and everything else. So we're gonna leave that for another discussion, another interview.

But I wanted to make sure that you, the listener, knew about this company, this amazing company called Diverge Sneakers. You can go to diverge. sneakers.com to learn more about what we just talked about. And I really appreciate,~ uh,~ you being on the show. Is there anything you wanna leave with the audience or any other places you want them to go?

Like any websites or social media or anything like that? 

Joao Esteves: No. We can just visit [00:49:00] our website. We have links to all social media that we invest in. ~Uh, ~yeah, give us a, a look. Look at the stories of,~ uh,~ the young men and women that are. And,~ uh,~ give us a shot. I really appreciate the opportunity. Come on to, to, to talk to you and to,~ uh,~ speak to your community and,~ uh,~ it's, it's been a, a fantastic opportunity.

Thank you for that. 

Ramon Vela: Yeah, no, thank you. I truly appreciate it. ~Uh, ~like I said. You're a product worth buying, a brand we're supporting, and I truly believe that. So, do yourself a favor. Go check out the website. Really interesting. ~Uh, ~look at how you can customize the sneakers. They've got really beautiful sneakers there as a base, or I'm not sure if that's what you call it, but I look at this as sort of like the canvas or the base.

And then you can, you know.

~Uh, ~so go check it out. We're gonna have the link to the website as well as any other links that we have, find on the, on, on their social media, whatnot, [00:50:00] on the podcast subscription, which you could find at Spotify,~ uh,~ apple and all the other places you listen to podcasts. Simply type in the story of a brand show and you should be able to find it beyond that.

Thank you everyone. ~Um, ~I really appreciate.

Steve, that was, that was even better. Even better that morning. I know you're, I know you're probably being kind to Great learning curve. 

Joao Esteves: Great learning curve. 

Ramon Vela: Thank you. ~Uh, ~he's the founder of Diverse Sneakers. Go check out the website and,~ uh,~ stay sane. Safe. Safe, stay healthy. And one last thing, everybody, we've all been going through something very difficult today.

April 9th or eighth? I'm, I don't remember what day it is. ~Um, ~we've had some just craziness in the news,~ um,~ all week, the last five days. ~Uh. ~I'll let you decide what that is, but a lot of people are nervous. A lot of people are stressed, a lot of people are worried. Let's just do ourselves a favor and remember that everyone is going through something.[00:51:00] 

It could be financial issues, it could be just the stress and anxiety of the world around us. It could be politics, it could be geopolitical wars, whatever it is. Let's just remember that. Everyone is going through something and let's just be a little kinder to each other and remembering that everyone is going through something and I know we can make this human experience a better one.

Beyond that. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening to another episode of the Story of a Brand.